DarkLordOfOptics
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Vortex Defender XL
Taking a first, rather extensive, look.
November 02, 2024
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When I visited Vortex back in September, I mentioned that I took a quick look at their new line of Defender red dot sights.


While all three are pretty nice, I thought the largest variant, the XL, stood out.  Despite being relatively compact and having a substantially large window, it seemed to maintain collimation quality very well pretty close to the edges.  That was noteworthy.

Now, I have done a good amount of shooting with it and have some initial thoughts.

The main reason I went with the XL version is two fold.  One is that it looked to have a very large sweetspot.  Another is that while the overall trend with pistol mounted red dot sights is toward enclosed emitter designs, one of the areas where open emitter sights have a distinct advantage is window size.  If you try to make an enclosed emitter RDS with a window this big, it will no longer be practical on a pistol.  Too big.

One of the long running experiments I have going on is an attempt to figure out how much of an issue (for me) is window size.  Many people want the largest window possible.  Others do not hugely care.  In principle, with a larger window size, your follow-up shot can be faster if you enver lost sight of the dot due to the recoil impulse.

In practice, I tend to shoot with rather slim and compact handguns a lot (Glock 43x or 48 most commonly), where the gun moves enough to always lose the dot.  Since you always ahve to reacquire it, the larger window size does not seem to offer all THAT much of an advantage.

Now, I have three similarly sized Glocks (two GLock17 and one 34) with different size red dot sights: Vortex Defender XL, Shield RMS2 and Leupold Deltapoint Micro.  I am going to do some experimentation and see how quickly the gun settles back on target for me with all three.  

The Defender XL is somewhat new for me, so before I do anything with a shot timer, I am just making sure I do some practice with it.

There are several reasons, other than the large window that made me the XL version of the Defender intersting.  I wanted to see if the size will prove to be a hindrance for carry.  I also really liked how they did the battery compartment.  It also comes with the largest dot size of the three: 8MOA.

There are three models: XL, ST and CCW.  XL and ST use DPP footprint.  CCW uses RMS/RMSc footprint.  Parallax and distortion seemed very well corrected on all three.

The window size of the XL is 25.5x23.5mm (WxH). On the ST it is 23x20mm.  On the CCW it is 20x16mm 

In practical terms, the width of the window on the XL is about the same (very slightly narrower)as the width of a full size Glock slide.

The housing, naturally, extends a little bit wider with the widest point being the brightness control buttons on the left and the right.  That makes them very easy to find via the tactile feel.  It also makes me wonder if I will accidentally press them when carrying the gun, so that is something to experiment with.  I do not have any issue concealing a full size pistol, especially now that we are at the beginning of November.  I will keep an eye out for that.  Generally, for a carry gun, I prefer autoadjust brightness, but there are conflicting opinions on that.

In terms of durability, I do not expect any issues.  I know that these were seriously abused during the design phase and the people at Vortex I have talked to do not seem to have any concerns about durability of the Defender red dots.  I am looking at a sample of one, so it is not like I can do anything statistically significant there.

The XL comes with either 5MOA or 8MOA dot size.  ST and CCW are available with 3MOA and 6MOA options.  I have long been a proponent of larger dot sizes in handgun red dot sights.  It seems like competition guys are on board with that (XL is aimed at them to some degree), but why you would want smaller dots on the ST and CCW that are ostensibly aimed at the consumer carry handgun market is not clear to me.  I suspect Vortex is simply giving people what they are asking for even if they are asking for something that makes no sense.

That's the difference, I suppose, between people who criticise stuff for a living (yours truly) and people who have to sell stuff for a living (Vortex).  They have to be very cognizant of what their customers are asking.  I am very curous what the relative sales numbers for different dot sizes are.

The Defender XL I have here came with an 8MOA dot and that is just about perfect.

For an example of what that looks like, here is an 8MOA dot on a 7'x12" plate at 52 yards (note that the red splash to the right of the dot is a reflection off of the camera lens; it is not there when you are using the sight).

There are several reasons I prefer larger dots: they are easy to see at lower relative brightness, they work better with mild astigmatism, they are easy to pick up.  Also, if you are shooting a little further out, it is a little easire to compensate for drop.  For example, if you sight your dot in at 25 yards, with a typical 9mm, you have about 2 inches of drop at 50 yards, about 4 inches of drop at 75 yards and about 10 inches of drop at 100 yards.  On a hundred yard plate, I just place the lower edge of an 8MOA dot on the top edge of the plate.

XL and ST use 2032 batteries.  CCW uses a smaller 1632.  All three have shake awake, so I expect the batteries to last for a while. With all three, the battery is accessible from the top, so you do not have to remove the optic to change batteries. With ST and CCW, the battery cap is simply threaded in, which is uniformly a pain in the ass for many reflex sights out there, including these.  Vortex does give you a tool for that and it sorta works, but I much prefer how they did it with the XL.  Since they had more space to work with, the battery cap is hinged at the front and is released with a simple button.  Not only does it make battery replacement a breeze, it also makes sure you can not get your fingerprint onto the inside fo the lens while messing with the battery.

Shooting with it, my initial impressions are very positive.  Everything worked as it should.  Nothing shifted.  Zeroing in was a breeze, and it stayed zeroed.

Getting on target was VERY quick.  I am not a high speed/low drag kind of guy, so I suspect in the hands of a truly skilled shooter this thing would be blazing.

The gun I have it on is a very modofied version of G17.  The frame started life as a G31 which was the first handgun I ever bought.  I have somewhere between 150k and 200k rounds fired with that frame between the original 357Sig, the later 9mm and also the Advantage Arms 22LR conversion kit.  As you can imagine, all the springs have been replaced more than once.

At some point, I sent it in for a grip reduction, since I do not like the figner grooves very much.  The grip was made slightly smaller and shortened to accept both 17 and 19 magazines.

The trigger I have in it is the Gen3 version of Haley Stregic's Skimmer trigger.

The slide is the first gen Atom from Unity Tactical with the OEM Glock barrel, Lone Wolf striker and extractor.

It is still a Glock, albeit a nice one.

For the side-by-side I am planning to do, the RMS2 sits on a Gen5 Glock 17 that is stock other than sporting a Timney trigger.  Deltapoint Micro is on a bone stock G34. 

Generally, I fully admit that Deltapoint Micro is more appropriate on a slimline G48, but I wanted the guns to be broadly comparable.  Once this test is done, the Micro will go back onto a smaller gun and G34 will be milled for a different optic, probably for Acro footprint.

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Vortex Defender XL Green

This is the second time Vortex' Defender XL crosses my path. I was very impressed with the original red dot version, so I was curious to see how the one with the green dot works for my eyes.
To get the details, see the attached video.
The cliff's notes version is that I am just as impressed with this one. In terms of collimation quality and parallax control, it is quite exceptional.
https://alnk.to/881BEV1

00:10:20
Primary Arms HTX-1 US Made red dot sight

I've had this RDS for a bit over two months now and I am beyond pleased with it.
Despite some spirited abuse, it keeps soldiering on.
https://alnk.to/1C9z5dw
It is a very nice RDS and being fully made in the US does not hurt either.

00:13:03
Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 Wrap-up

This scope comes up a lot since I really like the configuration. It is time to do a final wrap-up of it.

It is one of my favourite scopes on the market today, especially for the money, since I naturally lean toward general purpose-ish designs. Still, while the 3.5-21x44 Stryker is relatively compact and light, it still clearly leans toward the precision side of things, which suites me very well.

https://annexdefense.com/optics-and-optic-accessories/delta-optics/

00:10:25

I was a bit confused at the beginning but this is a new Model looking at the turret compare to old LH2-10x40,
Any news on this ?
https://www.amazon.com/Vortex-Optics-Razor-Second-Riflescopes/dp/B0FBMNTW52?th=1

Updates, deals and new review items: PLxC RDB, Zeiss Tripod, etc

As the week is coming to an end, I find myself in an unusual place: home.

I plan to be home between now and September 1st when I have to go to Israel for ten days, returning on the 11th (dayjob stuff).

For the last couple of months, between family vacations, work and a couple of matches, it seems like I only spent enough time at home to check zero on my 6.5CM Fix and head out again (it has not shifted, thank you Area 419 mount).

I have a lot to do during the next two weeks, but I will try to take some pictures, film some footage and release it as I go along. I can edit videos on the plane or in Israel just about as well as I can at home.

While generally, I am very picky about what I accept for review (given my bandwidth limitations), I do have a few new things here worth talking about.

One is Primary Arms new PLxC RDB 1-8x24 LPVO. It is essentially a version of the original FFP PLxC LPVO except with different reticle illumination technology. The new model utilizes diffractive reticle illumination (same style ...

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Rumble Studio crapped out on me. so I hadd to stream using a different service

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Steiner C35 Gen2 Mount
from Annex Defense

The production version of the Annex Defense's mount for the Steiner C35 Gen2 thermal Clip-on is finally here.  At $1600 (when this is published), the clip-on is an absolute steal.

I've had it for a few days, but, me being the good old paranoid me, I spent some time shooting with it before posting anything.  I had a couple of days with it prior to last weekend's match in Montana and a couple of days after.  Another to pop it on and off a few times and get a couple of hundred rounds of 6.5Grendel through the gun to see if anything shakes loose.  So far so good.

The C35 Gen2 clip-on is sitting on my 6.5Grendel AR as a part of a long running "Only One" project that I have.  It pairs perfectly with the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 scope.

Here is what comes in the box from Annex Defense:

The order in which the whole thing comes togethe is pretty stragihtforward:

-slide the thermal washer onto the threaded interface extending out of the back of the clip-on

-spin the mount itself onto the threaded interface (the mount is threaded on the inside) until it can go no further

-rotate the mount so that the clip-on is properly lined up to the picatinny clamp

-once you are happy with the alignment, use the three nylon tipped set screws (you'll need an allen wrench for that) to lock in the position of the clip-on in the mount.  You need very little torque on the set screws.  They are there for one reason and one reason only: to keep the mount from spinning when you tighten the timing nut in the next step

-spin the timing nut onto the threaded interface of the clip-on to lock the mount in place.  You should not need the timing nut wrench, but one is in there just in case.

Here are the pieces laid out in the order in which you will need them.

When you are done, it should look like this:

Note that the mount normaly comes with two T20 screws.  I am using two thumbscrews instead, since I am popping the mount on and off all the time.  It seems to be staying put with the thumbscrews just fine.  I am hoping Annex will offer the thumbscrews as an option.

It is not quite an equivalent of a QD mount, but we needed something with an extremely low profile clamp to fit under scopes with fairly large objectives.  As is, the mount works with most scope that have objective lens diameter of 50mm or less.

I am using with with Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 and the two work together exceedingly well.

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Scoping Gas Guns
an interesting question that acme in via PM

I received this question via a private message and thought it was interesting enough to answer it in some detail.  I have been thinking a lot about appropriate optics for gas guns recently, so this came it at the right time.

 

Here is what I ahve been messing with last few days:

 

Above: 18" WOA barrel 5.56 AR-15 with Burris XTR PS 5.5-30x56 on it.

Below: 22" Satern barrel 224Valkyrie AR-15 with Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 on it.


For obvious reasons, I am not posting who asked the question, but what I'll do is send him a link to this article, so that he gets an answer and we might have a good discussion.
Here is what I received:

Had a question for you
I have a Knights Armament SR25 6.5CM with a 14.5" barrel - I plan on shooting 100 - 600 yards at targets at 100 yd intervals
I am favoring the TT 315P with an Aimpont Acro mounted on top -( see you liked the TT315M) - would that be enough magnification?
I saw the SB SB 5-20 which offer more top end - I like the turrets on the Tanget and tooless Zero - what are your thoughts between the 2?
If I stayed 400 and under - how do you see the TT315P with the Acro Red dot against the SB 1-8 Short Dot (saw your review on that)

There isn't really enough information in the question for a simple answer, so let's consider a couple of options.

What is the gun for? 

For shooting medium range (out to 600) with occasional close range use?  If yes, go with a conventional scope and offset or piggybacked RDS.

For shooting at close distance with occasional med/long range use? If yes, so with a nice LPVO like the above mentioned S&B Short Dot 1-8x24 https://alnk.to/3J8vlFv.  It is quite capable at long range, but where it will really knock your socks off is up close and personal.

The question of what is enough magnification is pretty personal.  For me, 3-15x is plenty, but I shoot a lot off of the tripod and off of barricades which likely influences my decision.  For that, my 3-15x50 TT315M Tangent works great and 6mrad of elevation is plenty.  https://alnk.to/gVNkUXB  175gr #08 out of a shoter tube will drop in the 5 to 5.5mrad range at 600 yards.

For a dedicated long range semi-auto, other than the looks, there isn't much downside to a larger scope, which is why I set up Burris' XTR PS on the 5.56 AR pictured above.  It is for my son to learn to shoot at distance and to us in next year's BOTC match.  https://alnk.to/gp33YuR

If I were setting up an accurate semi-auto and wanted a high mag scope for it, I would likely lean toward March 4.5-28x52. https://alnk.to/dLjHgjh  It is compact, relatively light and very good optically for any use other than the dead of the night (for which we should be using clip-ons anyway).

S&B Short Dot is a very nice scope, but March is a newer design and, other than the lowest light, has an edge in terms of image fidelity and stray light control.

TT315P Tangent is a veyr ncie scope and toolles turrets are appealing.  However, there is a weight penalty to that.  For me, that was not worth it.  I ahve 5-25x56 and 7-35x Tangents and those toolless turrets are spectacular.  However, in a 3-15x50, I am quit ecomfortable with simpler 6mrad per turn knobs on the TT315M.

 

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A morning with a chronograph

When I tell people that I am using Hornady's factory ammo for matches, I get occasionally surprised looks.  Occasionally.  Most of the time, I get fairly condescending looks from handloaders who would not let a factory round pollute the chambers of their precision rifles if their lives depended on it.

To be fair, if I had the time, I might be reloading as well.  I might be able to do better than modern factory ammo, but the truth is that I am not a quarter MOA shooter, so a lot of that would be lost on me.  The UKD matches I fidn most interesting can be done by a competent shooter with a 1MOA gun.  I am working on that first part.  I reload when I have to, but if I can get factory ammo that's not outrageously expensive and that shoots well, I will go with that every time.

I looked around and realized that I have about 600 rounds of Hornady 147gr 6.5CM factory ammo from two lots.  400 rounds from one that I will use during the match later this month.  The remainder I will likely use up practicing prior to that.

I woke up early and snuck out to the range while my family was still asleep earlier today.

I set up in the 100 yard tunnel we have.  I took my four shots to zero with the lot I plan to use for the match.  Then I fired a six shot ~0.7MOA group.  That's accurate enough for my purposes.

Here are the chronograph results:

It is slow, but accurate and consistent.

Then I shot a five round group of Hornady 147gr ammo from the other lot.

Both of those lots are not too shabby for factory ammo.  POI was within 0.2mrad between the two lots, all laterally.  

 

I had some other ammo on hand, so I fired two five shot groups with Berger 144gr hybrid target ammo and Sako TRG 136gr.

Here is what I got for five rounds of Berger:

That's not a ton of statistics, but it is a data point.  The group was ~1.1MOA

 

Here the data for the Sako TRG 136gr ammo:

This ammo showed some mild pressure signs, but not too significant.  

Again, this is not a ton of data, but Hornady is looking pretty decent here.

I'll repeat the zero retention and consistency tests a couple more times between now and June 18th when we head to Wyoming.

I might pick up a couple more boxes of Hornady 147gr from a different lot to get some more data.

More to come.

 

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