DarkLordOfOptics
Politics • Science & Tech • Sports
Can you make a good 1- 10x scope?
critique of Brass Facts video
February 15, 2023
post photo preview

 

There is a nice video out there that claims it is impossible. I was blissfully unaware of it, but a friend of mine sent me the link, presumable because the video references me, however briefly.

I went and watched it. It really like the production quality and he really gets a lot of the details correctly (though not all). There is, however, one absolutely glaring error and a few minor ones. Now, that alone would not make me want to make what is essentially going to be a rebuttal video.  I decided to sit down and write down my thoughts before I make the video.  Than I decided to share these thoughts with you in a written form before I get to the video itself.

I do not like doing these critique jobs.  However, he is doing a pretty shameless straw man argument, so I figured it is worth my time.  I do not think his intent is malicious, but contrarian arguments get a lot of clicks.  It is very fashionable these days to find a product that shows up in serches a lto and crap all over it to make yourself stand out.  Still, I am going treat this as an error, rather than an attempt to obfuscate. The single biggest error and the one on which his whole argument hinges on, is that of expectations. He never states it out right, so noone really catches onto what is essentially a slight of hand.

There is a lot of footage of him walking up and down rocky hills with lots of nice gear and interspersed with diagrams only marginally related to the subject discussed.  It all looks authoritative and sounds really awesome. If you follow the logic of his argument it all really makes a lot of sense. If you accept his underlying assumption that is. The assumption that is never quite stated outrightm soit does not get challenged.

If you assume that a 1-10x LPVO is supposed to supersede BOTH lower mag ratio LPVOs AND Larger objective 2-10×40 MPVOs scopes, it all makes total sense.  However, that is not what they are for. They were never intended to peplace larger objective designs specifically for the reasons stated in the video: exit pupil gets small on high magnification when you have a small objective.

1-10x scopes are intended to extend the capability of lower erector ratio LPVOs in a pinch, not to supplant larger scopes.

A 1- 10x scope is indeed harder to build than a 1-4x, 1-6x or a 1- 8x. That's why good ones are expensive.  Somewhere in there he insinuated that he'd like a SFP 1-10x scope and they do exist, but there is a good reason to make these with FFP reticles when you consider the general purpose application.  Honestly, a part of his argument almost seems to be "they do not make these in the configuraiton that I'd like, which means it is not possible to make a good one".  That's a flawed argument at best.

Even with 1-8x designs, the trend is clearly toward FFP scopes and, again, for a good reason.  One of the many reasons to go with a FFP LPVO is that the reticle works on all magnifications.  MOst importantly, the reticle is designed to do different things on different magnifications.  That is intentional.  While a significant number of people do only use them on the lowest and highest magnifications, the biggest reason to have an LPVO on your AR is to be prepared for situations you did not expect.  That's where the flexibility comes in.  Another benefit of FFP designs is that in a modern LPVO you WANT a sophisticated free reticle on 5x and above to use for trajectory and wind compensation.  However, on Ix you want it to look like a simple reticle: bright dot, #4, etc. You do not want to see the entire tree.  That is not possible with a SFP only design. With FFP, it is easy to set things up so that all the busy stuff disappears out of view on low magnifications.

Now the criticism that most reticles in current FFP LPVOs are not sufficiently visible on lx without illumination and reticle illumination does not have a particularly long battery life is generally accurate, but not entirely valid.  First of all, it is absolutely possible to design a reticle that works fine in FFP LPVOs on 1x.  However, several companies deliberately do not do that. They choose to have the reticle disappear on 1x, so that all you get is a bright dot. A good example't that is what is arguably the most sophisticated tactical LPVO on the market at the moment: S&B Dual CC 1-8×24 That happens to be a dual focal plane design, but the idea is the same.  Steiner's new dual focal plane version of the M8Xi is set up in a similar way as well. Razor Geis 1-10×24 is FFP only and while the reticle has some visibility on 1x, it is not a ton without illumination.  The reticle can be easily modified to rectify that should they choose to.  March, with their dual focal plane 1-10×24, did exactly that. FFP reticle becomes very unobtrusive on low power, while the SFP reticle remains of the same apparent size. Essentially, it is a tree reticle on higher magnifications and a simple # 4 reticle on lower magnifications. The ACSS reticle in PA's 1-8×24 PLxC is FFP only, but it is set up to work just fine on 1x non-illuminated.  It would work in exactly the same way in 1-10x as it does in a 1-8x.

Then there is an argument that in 1-10x scopes the performance on 1x is not good, with Razor Gen 3 1-10x shown as an example.  He even has the camera show you a picture through the scope.

This is the part where I can't tell if it is incompetence on malfeasance.

1-10x scope is clearly not focused for the camera, while the other scopes are.  If I were trying to sabotage how a particular scope looks, this is how I would do it.  Now, I have seen a couple of other Youtubers make the same claim about the Razor and the pictures show the same thing: they either did not know how to set the scope up or intentionally set it up to look bad. Vortex bashing seems to be popular these days and is good for clicks.  Perhaps it is as simple as that.

Ultimately, the moral of this story is pretty simple:  FFP 1- 10x scopes are not simple to build, but it is clearly not impossible.  When discussing a scope, it is a good practice to understand what it was intended for.  Otherwise you end up with a straw man argument.

Oh, and when someone claims to have taken "engineering physics six hours a day, that usually though not always means that a sociology major is trying to impress an english major.  "Engineering physics" is a class for social studies people who need to fulfill a science requirement to graduate.

For background, I own two Razor Gen3 1-10x24 scopes, so I have spent a lot of time with them and have seen many more of these at Vortex' facility.  I have spent a LOT of time with two March 1-10x24 dual focal plance scopes.  I own two Primary Arms PLxC 1-8x24 scopes and March Shorty 1-8x24.  SAI 1-6x24 is here.  Tract 1-8x24, Steiner P4Xi 1-4x24 and PA Slx 1-6x24 are as well.  I bet there are several more I can not recall right offhand and that does not include a good number of various prototypes.  I have lost count of how many LPVOs of all possible flavors have gone through my hands over the years.  I was there essentially for the entirety of their evolution as general purpose AR scopes.  I have provided feedback and consulted on a good number of them.  Quite a few of the companies I provided feedback to did not necessarily follow my recommendations.  That does not mean they made a shitty scope.  That just means they prioritized something differently from the way I would, or had a somewhat different dsign goal or simply chose to go witht he feedback of a different SME.  There are a few of us around and we do not always agree with each other.  Design goals matter and they might not coincide perfectly with what you are looking.

community logo
Join the DarkLordOfOptics Community
To read more articles like this, sign up and join my community today
13
What else you may like…
Videos
Posts
Articles
Vortex Defender XL Green

This is the second time Vortex' Defender XL crosses my path. I was very impressed with the original red dot version, so I was curious to see how the one with the green dot works for my eyes.
To get the details, see the attached video.
The cliff's notes version is that I am just as impressed with this one. In terms of collimation quality and parallax control, it is quite exceptional.
https://alnk.to/881BEV1

00:10:20
Primary Arms HTX-1 US Made red dot sight

I've had this RDS for a bit over two months now and I am beyond pleased with it.
Despite some spirited abuse, it keeps soldiering on.
https://alnk.to/1C9z5dw
It is a very nice RDS and being fully made in the US does not hurt either.

00:13:03
Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 Wrap-up

This scope comes up a lot since I really like the configuration. It is time to do a final wrap-up of it.

It is one of my favourite scopes on the market today, especially for the money, since I naturally lean toward general purpose-ish designs. Still, while the 3.5-21x44 Stryker is relatively compact and light, it still clearly leans toward the precision side of things, which suites me very well.

https://annexdefense.com/optics-and-optic-accessories/delta-optics/

00:10:25
Uncooled Thermal with a little bit of history

There is, as always, an entertaining discussion happening in the Hide, but I do not feel like getting into another protracted argument about comparative merits of different uncooled cores with people who do not know a whole lot about them. I mentioned that BAE is getting out of the uncooled core business. The responses were interesting.

Still, I thought some of the background on uncooled cores is worth rehashing since I was around for most of it and involved in some of it. Hopefully, you'll find it informative. If not, this post will fade like many others before it.

Here is a little history on uncooled cores from an eyewitness.

I was working at Raytheon when it was starting out and one of my first projects over there was trying to figure out how to calibrate early uncooled cores for a military project that eventually ended up going into ENVG.

The uncooled technology was first developed by Honeywell and after a while they licensed it to a bunch of people. Honeywell developed the technology, but did not ...

Something to consider

I had an interesting conversation earlier today that made me think. I was approached by a company called TourHero.

Apparently what they do is organize various tours, trips, etc in partnership with different influencers.

The influencer does the marketing, i.e. convince his/her audience to buy this customized tour, while the company does all of the logistics.

The idea is that they get several people to pay extra for a tour package which pays for the influencer in question to come along and, apparently, make some money on top of it, depending on how much the influencer is able to get out of his/her followers.

How I got on their radar is very unclear since they are very focused on the Instagram crowd and I have a very small Instagram channel. https://www.instagram.com/darklordofoptics/

My best guess is that they saw the picture of my daughter and me after her antelope hunt and made some sort of an incorrect conclusion. Frankly, the types of the things that they push require levels of narcissism that I ...

Another G&A Article

For the few of you who still pay attention to print magazines, I have an article in the latest Precision Rifle Shooter, called "Optics For NRL Hunter". For those of you who have been following my stumbling and bumbling match shooting exploits, there isn't going to be anything new there. You know what I think on the subject.
However, I still get some sort of a weird nostalgic kick out of seeing something I write printed on paper.
When I was growing up in the Soviet Union, my room doubled as a family library. I think it is some latent aftereffect of spending my childhood with books. Gen-Xers have a reputation of spending their childhood outdoors doing whatever mischief came to mind and that is true in my case, to some extent.
However, that is largely because at some point my mother got sick and tired of seeing me in the apartment with my nose stuck in the book. Every once in a while she would just search me for hidden books then kick me out of the house to go do something active. It ...

post photo preview
Well, that was a doozy...

My original plan was to try to set up a hunt where my daughter will have her first memorable hunting experience without working too hard.

The choice of the pronghorn hunt was largely based off of my experience in that same area last year.

The way it went last year was quite straightforward.  We drove around until we saw a large pronghorn buck.  It was a solitary animal that decided to lie down in an open area to relax.  We made a short stock, crawled the last hundred yards or so, found a good spot about 350 yards away from the pronghorn and made the shot.

https://darklordofoptics.locals.com/post/6034347/well-that-was-a-nice-morning

This year, when I decided to take my daugher on the same pronghorn hunt on the day of her 14th birthday, I figured it will be somewhere along those same lines.  It kinda was, but not quite.

Still, it worked out nicely.

In the pciture:

Q Mini-Fix with 6ARC 16" Proof Research carbon fiber barrel

Q Jumbo Shrimp supressor

Gunwerks Elevate 2.0 bipod

Telson Toxin 3-18x50 riflescope

Leica Geovid Pro AB+ LRF binoculars

Pint-sized sticky Gamechanger bag

Unnamed pronghorn buck.  It will likely get a name once it's skull is euro-ed and is hanging on the wall.

Only for Supporters
To read the rest of this article and access other paid content, you must be a supporter
Read full Article
Arming The Children
A couple of very specific children that is

In case you were wondering, no, I am not starting an underage militia.

I do have two kids though and I am teaching them to shoot.

Only for Supporters
To read the rest of this article and access other paid content, you must be a supporter
Read full Article
post photo preview
Steiner C35 Gen2 Mount
from Annex Defense

The production version of the Annex Defense's mount for the Steiner C35 Gen2 thermal Clip-on is finally here.  At $1600 (when this is published), the clip-on is an absolute steal.

I've had it for a few days, but, me being the good old paranoid me, I spent some time shooting with it before posting anything.  I had a couple of days with it prior to last weekend's match in Montana and a couple of days after.  Another to pop it on and off a few times and get a couple of hundred rounds of 6.5Grendel through the gun to see if anything shakes loose.  So far so good.

The C35 Gen2 clip-on is sitting on my 6.5Grendel AR as a part of a long running "Only One" project that I have.  It pairs perfectly with the Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 scope.

Here is what comes in the box from Annex Defense:

The order in which the whole thing comes togethe is pretty stragihtforward:

-slide the thermal washer onto the threaded interface extending out of the back of the clip-on

-spin the mount itself onto the threaded interface (the mount is threaded on the inside) until it can go no further

-rotate the mount so that the clip-on is properly lined up to the picatinny clamp

-once you are happy with the alignment, use the three nylon tipped set screws (you'll need an allen wrench for that) to lock in the position of the clip-on in the mount.  You need very little torque on the set screws.  They are there for one reason and one reason only: to keep the mount from spinning when you tighten the timing nut in the next step

-spin the timing nut onto the threaded interface of the clip-on to lock the mount in place.  You should not need the timing nut wrench, but one is in there just in case.

Here are the pieces laid out in the order in which you will need them.

When you are done, it should look like this:

Note that the mount normaly comes with two T20 screws.  I am using two thumbscrews instead, since I am popping the mount on and off all the time.  It seems to be staying put with the thumbscrews just fine.  I am hoping Annex will offer the thumbscrews as an option.

It is not quite an equivalent of a QD mount, but we needed something with an extremely low profile clamp to fit under scopes with fairly large objectives.  As is, the mount works with most scope that have objective lens diameter of 50mm or less.

I am using with with Steiner H6Xi 2-12x42 and the two work together exceedingly well.

Read full Article
Available on mobile and TV devices
google store google store app store app store
google store google store app tv store app tv store amazon store amazon store roku store roku store
Powered by Locals