DarkLordOfOptics
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An interesting question that deserves an answer
this came to me via a PM elsewhere
August 24, 2023

I finally got back from Israel last night.  Once I am past the usual jetlag, it is back to business as usual.  In the meantime, I got an interesting question via a PM.  Looking at it, I do not think there is anything in there to identify the sender, so it is pretty safe to answer it openly.  To be perfectly blunt, a significant number of good but long questions like this one was the original reason I started this website. 

What is really interesting and it happens all the time is that people ask me for a question about optics in a PM and say that they will not repeat it in an open thread.  I always found that perplexing.  Barring some occasional personal or professional detail, there isn't a damned thing I can tell you about riflescope that can not be shared in an open forum

The question is italicised.  My comments are in bold.

I do have a couple questions for you, but I will share briefly my experience with optics has been more with APO telescopes from Astro-physics out of Illinois designed by Roland Christensen. Many of his scopes have a five to seven year waiting list for them. In astrophotography as you may know the cameras must be chilled to the -40F range due to the long exposure times which heat up the CCD chip and if not chilled, will introduce visual artifacts in the form of white discs which looks like amother star, not good for Astro-images! In astrophotography it is about capturing few photons, thus long exposures. If only we could keep our eyes open for three or four minutes we could see so much more in the night sky.

I do not do a whole lot of astrophotography, but I used to work on astronomy FPAs for both land-based and space-based telescopes.  When you chill those large format CCDs, you are suppressing dark current, the spurious self-generated signal that can look like celestial objects that are not there.  Professionally speaking, image sensors specifically and electro-optical imaging systems more generally, is my field of expertise.  Riflescopes is more of a hobby.


One other comment, in conventional photography, superb prime lenses from Zeiss or Leica can really make a difference in gaining the final bits of performance for commercial photographers that are actually selling their images.

Now comes the perplexing area of riflescopes which I see as having a very narrow utilitarian purpose: can you see the target clearly and is the tracking accurate so that the system is repeatable under sometimes severe recoil over and over? Many people would really be annoyed at my simplification, but it is foundationally accurate.

I am perplexed when people on here get fixated on the accuracy of the color image and even CA, as you are not capturing a photograph wherein CA or color inaccuracy would be wholly unacceptable.

There is a fundamental difference between capturing images with a camera and perceiving them with your eye.  Human vision gets a lot from color details, so color accuracy does play a role.  As far as CA goes, some people pay more attention to it than others.  Depending on what type of CA it is, it also serves as an indication of other design/assembly problems in the optical system.  As far as commercial photography goes, how much difference Zeiss or Leica lenses really make is somewhat arguable since I have seen all sorts of lenses used for commercial purposes with great success.  It is a bit disingenuous for me to say since I use a Leica camera myself, but some optical issues are much easier to deal with when you have a digital image and a processor.  

With all that I would like to ask you a question and I won’t repeat your answer in a thread, but after you have made an exhaustive evaluation and comparison of say these three scopes the TT 7-35, SB 6-36 and the Zeiss LRP S3 6-36 and you conclude the winners to be TT, SB and finally Zeiss. Does if bother you going forward to look through the Zeiss S3 6-36? Can you not be satisfied any longer with the Zeiss as you been ruined by the TT and/or SB? I ask because the US culture is based on marketing and creating discontenment. “Oh you only own a NF, you cannot comprehend what you are missing comparing it to a TT.” Do you see what I am getting at?

I have been travelling for a bit and only got back home last night.  I have not yet spent enought time with the TT to confidently say how it compares with the S&B.  I do like the S&B and if you can get a good deal on it, you are likely to be happy with it.  P5 is a good reticle.  The question of if you can be satisfied with something less expensive once you have tried the fanciest stuff is very personal.  When not testing scopes, I use a broad range of design from mid-range on upwards and I am happy with all of them for different reasons.  YMMV.  

When I look at an iPhone with an OLED display I can say it is a clearer display, but when I use an iPhone without OLED, I conclude it’s alright and soon forget the OLED. Now if you move that OLED screen from a 6” phone to a 65” OLED TV - then it is a must have difference.

This is not really an apples-to-apples comparison, since you use your phone and TV for different purposes that are yet very different from DVO optics.  The differences between displays mostly pertian to the color gamut they can cover along with consistency and dynamic range of the contrast.  If you primarly use your phone for texting, e-mail, calendar, other text based apps and occasional social media, the type of the display is not super critical.  If you were doing more image critical things, it would make a bigger difference.  With a 65" TV, you are looking at images all the time, although video is somewhat more forgiving than stills.

So to end I want to ask you a couple of questions. I have an opportunity to buy new a Zeiss LRP S5 6-36x56 {details of the discount withheld} I have the opportunity to buy the SB 6-36 with the P5 reticle also significantly discounted (I won’t say how much) and the TT 7-35 would be no discount.
I’ve read your posts recently that you really like the SB 6-36. Also that you would be soon acquiring the TT 7-35. If you have both the SB and TT now. Just your snap evaluation optically which of the two do you like the best? In a couple of sentences optically which do you like better and why? And with your trained eyes are the differences very subtle such that in a double blind test you may not be able to tell the difference? Lastly, is the Zeiss S3 so much more inferior than the SB and TT?

Knowing what you‘ve seen in the SB, TT and Zeiss S3, has the SB and TT wrecked you from being able to enjoy the Zeiss S3?

Once I have spent more time with these scopes, I will have detailed impressions.  I can tell you right offhand that Zeiss is a perfectly respectable scope.  If you have a good deal in front of you and you like the reticle, you'll probbaly be quite happy with it.  S&B is indeed a better scope, but whether the price difference is worth the performance difference is very personal.  I can not make that decision for you.  As I have said many times in the past, if I were spending my own money on a current production Japanese 6-36x56 scope, on balance, I still think Razor Gen3 is the best one overall, while Element Theos has the best turrets.

I will say that "wrecked from being able to enjoy..." would require levels of conceit even I am not quite capable of.  I greatly enjoy my high end scopes, but there are other considerations that matter as well.  I have two Tangents that I consider to be the best within their applicable range of applications, but there are other applications where they are not ideal and I use something else.

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I had a couple of ARs I wanted to set up for long range training. There is more to do with them, but I started out by swapping out the handguards for models with an integrated full length Arca rail. Larger flat on the bottom of the handguard helps it settle on the sandbag and makes it easier to shoot off of a tripod. I also found the ability to slide the bipod to different positions occasionally helpful.

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Burris XTR PS Wrap-Up

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That means I have been messing with this design for a bit under four months. That does not quite qualify as a long term test by my standards, but it is a fair amount of time and quite a few rounds shot, mostly 5.56 and 308.
I have both of the models of XTR PS and both work well.
https://alnk.to/3U3cZEC

For matches and such, I would lean toward the 5.5-30x56 version, but for general purpose use, the smaller 3.3-18x50 model does have an edge. You can shoot a match with it, take it hunting in the mountains or slap a thermal clip-on in front to go shoot some pigs. While not light weight, it is a very flexible design owing to moderate size and mid-pack magnification range.

As I said in the video, I think XTR PS is a meaningful step forward in simplifying how we shoot at distance.

I will provide occasional updates as I continue using the scope.

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5x Prismatic Wrap-up

This is not the end of my commentary on 5x prismatics, but it is a wrap for an unintentionally very long term project I had. I spent an unhealthy amount of time evaluating these four prismatic riflescopes:
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Leupold Scope dump at CDNN.

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Publishing a "Happy Independence Day!" a day after independence day is probably bad form. It is also bad for posting affiliate links. Everybody and their grandmother is having discounts and I am not posting any links. To be honest, I do not particularly like posting general links and I simply did not have time to dig through everything and come with specific product links.
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Scoping Gas Guns
an interesting question that acme in via PM

I received this question via a private message and thought it was interesting enough to answer it in some detail.  I have been thinking a lot about appropriate optics for gas guns recently, so this came it at the right time.

 

Here is what I ahve been messing with last few days:

 

Above: 18" WOA barrel 5.56 AR-15 with Burris XTR PS 5.5-30x56 on it.

Below: 22" Satern barrel 224Valkyrie AR-15 with Delta Stryker 3.5-21x44 on it.


For obvious reasons, I am not posting who asked the question, but what I'll do is send him a link to this article, so that he gets an answer and we might have a good discussion.
Here is what I received:

Had a question for you
I have a Knights Armament SR25 6.5CM with a 14.5" barrel - I plan on shooting 100 - 600 yards at targets at 100 yd intervals
I am favoring the TT 315P with an Aimpont Acro mounted on top -( see you liked the TT315M) - would that be enough magnification?
I saw the SB SB 5-20 which offer more top end - I like the turrets on the Tanget and tooless Zero - what are your thoughts between the 2?
If I stayed 400 and under - how do you see the TT315P with the Acro Red dot against the SB 1-8 Short Dot (saw your review on that)

There isn't really enough information in the question for a simple answer, so let's consider a couple of options.

What is the gun for? 

For shooting medium range (out to 600) with occasional close range use?  If yes, go with a conventional scope and offset or piggybacked RDS.

For shooting at close distance with occasional med/long range use? If yes, so with a nice LPVO like the above mentioned S&B Short Dot 1-8x24 https://alnk.to/3J8vlFv.  It is quite capable at long range, but where it will really knock your socks off is up close and personal.

The question of what is enough magnification is pretty personal.  For me, 3-15x is plenty, but I shoot a lot off of the tripod and off of barricades which likely influences my decision.  For that, my 3-15x50 TT315M Tangent works great and 6mrad of elevation is plenty.  https://alnk.to/gVNkUXB  175gr #08 out of a shoter tube will drop in the 5 to 5.5mrad range at 600 yards.

For a dedicated long range semi-auto, other than the looks, there isn't much downside to a larger scope, which is why I set up Burris' XTR PS on the 5.56 AR pictured above.  It is for my son to learn to shoot at distance and to us in next year's BOTC match.  https://alnk.to/gp33YuR

If I were setting up an accurate semi-auto and wanted a high mag scope for it, I would likely lean toward March 4.5-28x52. https://alnk.to/dLjHgjh  It is compact, relatively light and very good optically for any use other than the dead of the night (for which we should be using clip-ons anyway).

S&B Short Dot is a very nice scope, but March is a newer design and, other than the lowest light, has an edge in terms of image fidelity and stray light control.

TT315P Tangent is a veyr ncie scope and toolles turrets are appealing.  However, there is a weight penalty to that.  For me, that was not worth it.  I ahve 5-25x56 and 7-35x Tangents and those toolless turrets are spectacular.  However, in a 3-15x50, I am quit ecomfortable with simpler 6mrad per turn knobs on the TT315M.

 

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A morning with a chronograph

When I tell people that I am using Hornady's factory ammo for matches, I get occasionally surprised looks.  Occasionally.  Most of the time, I get fairly condescending looks from handloaders who would not let a factory round pollute the chambers of their precision rifles if their lives depended on it.

To be fair, if I had the time, I might be reloading as well.  I might be able to do better than modern factory ammo, but the truth is that I am not a quarter MOA shooter, so a lot of that would be lost on me.  The UKD matches I fidn most interesting can be done by a competent shooter with a 1MOA gun.  I am working on that first part.  I reload when I have to, but if I can get factory ammo that's not outrageously expensive and that shoots well, I will go with that every time.

I looked around and realized that I have about 600 rounds of Hornady 147gr 6.5CM factory ammo from two lots.  400 rounds from one that I will use during the match later this month.  The remainder I will likely use up practicing prior to that.

I woke up early and snuck out to the range while my family was still asleep earlier today.

I set up in the 100 yard tunnel we have.  I took my four shots to zero with the lot I plan to use for the match.  Then I fired a six shot ~0.7MOA group.  That's accurate enough for my purposes.

Here are the chronograph results:

It is slow, but accurate and consistent.

Then I shot a five round group of Hornady 147gr ammo from the other lot.

Both of those lots are not too shabby for factory ammo.  POI was within 0.2mrad between the two lots, all laterally.  

 

I had some other ammo on hand, so I fired two five shot groups with Berger 144gr hybrid target ammo and Sako TRG 136gr.

Here is what I got for five rounds of Berger:

That's not a ton of statistics, but it is a data point.  The group was ~1.1MOA

 

Here the data for the Sako TRG 136gr ammo:

This ammo showed some mild pressure signs, but not too significant.  

Again, this is not a ton of data, but Hornady is looking pretty decent here.

I'll repeat the zero retention and consistency tests a couple more times between now and June 18th when we head to Wyoming.

I might pick up a couple more boxes of Hornady 147gr from a different lot to get some more data.

More to come.

 

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First PRS Match is behind me
High Noon at Del Norte

My first PRS match is officially behind me.  It was, I think an officially sanctioned regional PRS match at the shooting range called Del Norte about an hour from me (just east of Rio Rancho).
As I discussed previously, rather than using the rifle I originally prepared for it, I ended up having to change gears at the last moment and slapping a 5-25x56 Tangent on my daughter's 6ARC MiniFIx.  A lightweight 16" Proof barreled 6ARC is not an ideal set up for PRS competition, but, in the grand scheme of things, the rifle did hot hold me back at all.  I had a couple of weights that fit the Q-cert handguard, so I slapped them on there as well, which got the rifle to right around 12lbs.  The balance point was almost where I want it, but not quite.  In all other ways, this was a very handy rifle to shoot.  I am actually thinking of getting a couple more weights that I can stack on it (Sawtooth weights are stackable), so that I can shoot some future local matches with it.  It shoots Hornady's Black 105gr ammo very well (it also shoots 108gr ELD-M and 103gr ELD-X well, but I had a larger supply of Hornady Black ammo on hand).

It chrono'ed pretty consistently for factory ammo.  Here are the measurements for a 20 shot group.

If I were to take out the fastest shot, SD drops down to 8fps.  

In terms of wind performance, it is a 5mph rifle, so slightly better than the 308 ammo I was going to use originally, but not as good as the 6.5CM that was my intended match rifle for this year (we make plans, but then life happens).

I do have to admit that I really enjoyed shooting the match with the MiniFix.  So much so, that I am seriously thinking of building another one for myself, since this rifle is technically my daughter's.

The closest shot we had was a bit over a couple of hundred yards.  The furthest was around 1150.  That was a bit challenging for the 16" barreled 6ARC, especially since the terrain there is tricky and wind is doing strange things.  Morning was relatively quiet wind-wise, but then the wind becamse gusty with changing directions.

It was a one day match with about 30 shooters (six squads) and ten stages.  The 17 year old kid who won the match was in my squad with his dad.  Apparently he is on the US team, so it should not be surrpising that he won.  He was very good.

Overall level of the shooters in the match was quite good.  I really was not sure what to expect.  Somewhat paradoxically, the only matches that I have shot in so far are the much larger two day NRL Hunter matches.  In those, I am just out of the bottom third in terms of skill level.  In this match, it was pretty much in the same spot, I think.  

The terrain was a little bit like Cameo, I think (I have been there, but not shot there), with some angle changes and sufficient vegetation to make getting on target occasionally troublesome. 

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